Over the past few days, a link to the blog Big Hollywood has been being tossed around by various people I follow on Twitter, generally with some fire in their 140-character bellies. Always curious about the state of the fantasy genre, I followed the link and read “The Bankrupt Nihilism of Our Fallen Fantasists” with considerable interest.
At first, I dismissed it with a snarky tweet of my own, but then I started to think about it more, found myself thinking about it too much, getting uncomfortable with the fact that I agreed with some of the author’s assertions but disagreed with most, until I finally felt moved to sit down and write this . . . I guess you could call it “rejoinder,” or reductio ad absurdum.
Anyway, I invite you all over to Big Hollywood to first read Leo Grin’s essay, then come back here.
Okay, got it?
Mr. Grin had me as a friend right away. I too played, and even spent fifteen years making a living at, Dungeons & Dragons. I’m cooler on Tolkien than he, but have always respected ol’ J.R.R.’s monumental contribution to the fantasy genre, and I share Grin’s abiding love of the work of Robert E. Howard. I see from his bio that Grin even edited a literary journal devoted to the works of REH. Preach it, Brother. Howard rules.
Then Grin sets off the first of a series of literary IEDs by saying he doesn’t “particularly care for fantasy per se,” which is fine, not everyone has to be a fantasy fan, but then he reverses that in the very next sentence. Go ahead, read it again.
Lest this just degenerate into some kind of flame against Leo Grin, who’s entirely entitled to his opinion, I’d like to add that I read this essay just as I finished reading two books I’d like to drag into this argument on the state of the genre today.
First was A Short History of Myth by scholar/author Karen Armstrong, which concludes with this paragraph:
“If it is written and read with serious attention, a novel, like a myth or any great work of art, can become an initiation that helps us to make a painful rite of passage from one phase of life, one state of mind, to another. A novel, like a myth, teaches us to see the world differently; it shows us how to look into our own hearts and to see our world from a perspective that goes beyond our own self-interest. If professional religious leaders cannot instruct us in mythical lore, our artists and creative writers can perhaps step into this priestly role and bring fresh insight to our lost and damaged world.”
She’s speaking of fiction in general here, but what genre does this more overtly than fantasy? This is precisely what Grin is trying to say. Where are the great fantasy myths of the genre’s “classical period,” which as I’ve said I agree can be attributed to Tolkien and Howard (with a few additions, especially Burroughs and Lovecraft)? But as Armstrong covers in her book, the nature of the human mythological tradition has changed enormously in structure, content, intent, and pervasiveness over time and as real world conditions change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
Grin’s assertion that “Virtually everything written under the banner of fantasy today,” doesn’t fall into the category of contemporary myth is simply wrong.
First, it seems to indicate that he’s read everything written in the fantasy genre, which I know is not true since he makes a point to tell us about a few books he hasn’t read. Apparently what he has read recently doesn’t fit as securely as he’d like into the mold he’s come to expect from Tolkien and Howard, which then makes all contemporary fantasy novels less a myth for their place and time than the fantasy novels of a couple generations past.
On the other hand, I tend to agree that there is a danger to the genre from “writers (and I would add editors and critics) clearly bored with the classic mythic undertones of the genre,” who may be seeking to work out some grudge against the archetypes of the genre at the expense of readers who actually enjoy and desire those archetypes (note the word archetypes, not clichés, and there is a difference).
During my time at Wizards of the Coast I often reminded the editors who worked for me—and an occasionally cynical marketing staff—that the people who buy and read books set in the various Dungeons & Dragons worlds had a reasonable package of expectations that could be described as “heroic fantasy,” and though we tested the confines of that envelope from time to time, we discussed and actually fought against a boredom, or burn-out that might have resulted in our long-running novel lines going painfully off track.
This is where the second book I recently finished comes in. This one, Writing the Breakout Novel by literary agent Donald Maass is a featured book this week on my own blog, Fantasy Authors Handbook. In it, Maass may have the explanation Leo Grin is looking for:
“. . . authors who have hit a midcareer crisis are prone to create characters that are dark, depressed, unpleasant—sometimes even repellent. Usually, when I point out the drawbacks of such characters, the authors at first are indignant. ‘That is what I was going for,’ they say. ‘These are the best characters I have ever written! Believe me, there really are people like this out there!’
“I am sure. But does anyone really want to read about them? Authors in crisis believe so. They write characters who they feel will win back for them the respect they lost.”
He goes on to say:
“Fiction is not life. It needs to reflect life if it is to be believable, but virtually all readers unconsciously seek out novels for an experience of human life that is admirable, amusing, hopeful, perseverant, positive, inspiring and that ultimately makes us feel whole.”
I was a little reluctant to bring that up, though, lest it seem that I agree with Leo Grin’s criticism of the new novel by Joe Abercrombie, which Grin holds up for derision based on its cover blurbs and his dislike of the author’s previous work. I don’t know Joe Abercrombie and don’t want to imply that I think he’s “hit a midcareer crisis,” and having not read the book in question either, I won’t defend or assault it in substance.
It’s okay to dislike an author’s approach. If there are authors you like and authors you don’t that just means the genre has grown to include a plurality of voices, not that everything published in the last 20-30 years is all crap. Many of the books I had a hand in publishing at Wizards of the Coast are worthy successors to Tolkien’s mythic vision (the massive world of Ed Greenwood’s Forgotten Realms and the enduring fantasy classics of Weis & Hickman’s Dragonlance), with healthy doses of Maass’s admirable, amusing, hopeful, perseverant, positive, and inspiring in the works of R.A. Salvatore. I imagine these would be dismissed as “Lord of the Rings 90210.”
But I submit that that body of work alone refutes Grin’s core assertion, which seems to be that the fantasy genre is overwhelmed by strident anti-Tolkien and anti-REH forces bent on dragging us through the cess of degenerate immaturity. If fantasy has evolved to take on a darker tone, matured to address adult themes, isn’t that more likely a response to the world around us now—that the myths of the early 21st century will be different in some way from the myths of the mid-20th century—than that there’s some kind of conspiracy to pervert a genre that apparently not only peaked but effectively stopped with Tolkien and Howard?
It’s probably beneath us all to point out the essay’s more bizarre lapses of logic, like the baseless accusation that the title of The Iron Dragon’s Daughter “lured in many young girls,” or the quote from Robert Bloch’s shot at Conan held up for ridicule a paragraph before Grin does the same by calling contemporary fantasy authors “cheap purveyors of civilizational graffiti.”
Leo Grin, who apparently is or was something of a Robert E. Howard scholar, also seems to have forgotten that the bulk of Howard’s oeuvre were stories neither hopeful nor uplifting, and in fact reveled in savagery and violence. Which is why I loved them so much as a kid.
So, Leo Grin, I don’t think you’re “humorless” or “old fashioned.” I think you happened upon a couple of fantasy novels you didn’t like then took a short-cut through thinking to a dismissive, ill-informed opinion you really ought to have kept to yourself, at least until you had a chance to do a little more thinking, and a lot more reading.
—Philip Athans
Philip Athans is the founding partner of Athans & Associates Creative Consulting, and the New York Times best-selling author of Annihilation

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Mike Cane, John Ottinger. John Ottinger said: P: THE KNEE-JERK REDUCTIONISM OF OUR ILL-CONSIDERED BLOGGERS http://bit.ly/hfUZi5 #scifi #fantasy [...]
Grin’s article was interesting, but I definitely don’t agree with his views. Your rebuttal is sound. I agree that the changing, darker nature of fantasy is merely a reflection of a 21st century viewpoint. Mid 20th century life, in the grip of war and its aftermath, would naturally look toward a bright, lighter form of myth to drag their spirits out of the depression that was reality (thus giving birth to the Tolkien and REH archetypes outlined in Grin’s article).
However, 21st Century society faces much more distant troubles. Global economic crises aside, we’re living in a comparatively quiet time. Thus, tales of anti heroes and the darker nature of the human soul infuse the myths we seek. Historically this can be seen during the English Renaissance of the 17th century – a period of cultural and social prosperity that spawned Milton’s Paradise Lost, which very dark in its tone.
Leo is indeed a Howard scholar, but don’t mistake his arguments for fantasy with hope and uplifiting ideas as being some misreading of Howard: even in Howard’s darkest and bleakest tales, there are examples of bravery, heroism and optimism. “Beyond the Black River” is one of Howard’s very darkest Conan stories, yet we still have Conan fighting beyond hope to save the settlers of the Westermarck, the courage of the settlers themselves as they march through Pictish territory, and many more. Same with other dark Conan stories like “Red Nails.”
What Leo is criticizing are those stories where there is no such heroism, where those who could be considered heroes are swiftly killed off or corrupted, the implication being that heroism is inherently unrealistic. Leo rejects that notion.
[...] Scott Bakker (mostly anti), and Jeff VanderMeer (fairly neutral and descriptive). Adam Whitehead, Phil Athans, and Paul Charles Smith, among others, also had comments. Around these parts, John O’Neill [...]
While I overall trend toward your point of view over Grin’s, this section did pull me up:
[block]If fantasy has evolved to take on a darker tone, matured to address adult themes, isn’t that more likely a response to the world around us now—that the myths of the early 21st century will be different in some way from the myths of the mid-20th century—than that there’s some kind of conspiracy to pervert a genre that apparently not only peaked but effectively stopped with Tolkien and Howard?[/block]
The sub-genre of “gritty” fantasy out there is something enjoyed by many people. But “evolution”? “matured”? By implication giving the role of immaturity to those novels which are not “gritty”, which don’t run on a theme of “there are no heroes and humans are base at core” (or whatever you’d like to say is the core theme of the sub-genre)? That I can’t agree with.
There are books which explore heroism, there are books which explore lack of heroism, there are books which focus on rape and murder and shit, and there are books which have worlds where such things exist, but focus instead on growth, stoicism, stepping up to the mark. Neither is an evolution, a step further and better than the other. Neither is new. If nothing else, you may smile at this very early example of, uh, an unromantic view of the world: http://www.potw.org/archive/potw158.html of what your post seems to imply is an evolution.
And I trend toward your point of view, as well.
I certainly didn’t mean to imply that fantasy that didn’t include “rape and murder and shit” were by nature immature. What I meant was that the genre as a whole has changed (evolved–which doesn’t automatically assume only change for the better) to include a wider scope of storytelling approach, including stories that are not necessarily appropriate for younger readers (which is what I was going for with “matured”).
And I certainly agree that “gritty fantasy” (though I admit I kinda cringe at that label) has been around for a very long time. Yet another reason to puzzle over the original blog post from Leo Grin.
I guess I’d call it “non-romantic fantasy” (in the original meaning of romance), if I was going to try and slap a label on it.
Anway, glad to see I misread.
Quote from Andrea: “There are books which explore heroism, there are books which explore lack of heroism, there are books which focus on rape and murder and shit, and there are books which have worlds where such things exist, but focus instead on growth, stoicism, stepping up to the mark. Neither is an evolution, a step further and better than the other. Neither is new.”
Hear! Hear! The best comment I’ve read on any post regarding this discussion! Thank you Andrea
[...] for the Wind has a post from Phil Athans, who finds himself somewhat on the fence regarding this whole issue. All in all, this is a nice [...]
Holy crap.
I’m going to say this ONCE (listen closely):
THE GENRE HAS NOT CHANGED!
Bloody hell. Simply because some new works within the genre have a grittier, more realistic lifeview, and a tendency towards swearing, sex and violence doesn’t mean the “genre” changed. It means it is diversifying with a more varied menu for fantasy fans.
Look at these authors with current hits:
The Crown Conspiracy – Michael J. Sullivan
The Way Of Kings – Brandon Sanderson
The Name Of The Wind – Patrick Rothfuss
The Gathering Storm – Robert Jordan & Brandon Sanderson
His Majesty’s Dragon – Naomi Novik
The Codex Alera series – Jim Butcher
All of these are heroic fantasy MINUS the stuff that Grin seems to dislike. My point is you can find just as much fantasy that is classical, typical heroic fantasy as you can the more grittier breed.
It is flat out fanta-centrism to believe otherwise. Your post basically affirms Grin’s belief that these new branches of the fantasy genre don’t belong for some reason. That’s not only ludicrous, but elitist IMHO. Who is Grin to decide what belongs in the fantasy genre. Do you think anyone with half brain would DEIGN to make the same judgments of a branch of current mainstream lit? they’d be crucified for being so bloody obtuse.
Grin is an idiot who opened his yap when he shouldn’t have.
Abercrombie’s and Werthead’s retorts on their respective websites spell out perfectly what was wrong with Grin’s idiocy and I stand by both those posts.
This post of yours really serves no purpose and is not all that productive is it?
[...] quite old. Also, if I may be forgiven one more link and one more self-contradiction, I found that this “rebuttal” from Philip Athans is also pretty close to what I would want to [...]