If you’ve been even dimly aware of the world around you for at least the last decade or so, you’ve probably heard the term “intellectual property” bandied about. If you haven’t, or aren’t sure what it means, an intellectual property, as defined by the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) “relates to items of information or knowledge, which can be incorporated in tangible objects at the same time in an unlimited number of copies at different locations anywhere in the world. The property is not in those copies but in the information or knowledge reflected in them. Intellectual property rights are also characterized by certain limitations, such as limited duration in the case of copyright and patents.”
Think of it this way: Star Wars was a really cool movie released in 1977. Add to that five more movies, Clone Wars, Force Unleashed, all those books for kids and adults, comic books, action figures, and so on, and Star Wars is an intellectual property—and what some corporations would refer to as a “global brand.”
In more and more instances as everyone from filmmakers to video game studios look to the success of brands like Star Wars or Harry Potter, there’s a sense that everything is more than the limits of its initial incarnation. Every movie, book, or game is at least a potential intellectual property.
For about the last decade and a half I was tasked with helping to maintain and develop a number of successful, long-running intellectual properties. Part of my job was to look far beyond each individual book or game product and both back over the existing canon and forward toward the lasting implications of every decision. Two of the most successful properties in the Wizards of the Coast (via TSR) portfolio are the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance settings. To me these have been, for years, two sides of the same coin.
Both are long-lived, successful properties, sub-brands of the Dungeons & Dragons game, that have been brought to life in a number of media from pencil-and-paper role-playing games through best-selling novel series, and on to video games, animated films, comic books, etc. But what separated them, at least in my mind, is the initial approaches from which they were born.
For me, Faerûn (the Forgotten Realms setting) was a world created first, and characters and stories were added later. Krynn, meanwhile, was a setting created for the original Dragonlance Chronicles novel and D&D adventure module trilogy, and was further developed only in the service of a continuing series of sequels and prequels.
I’ve seen other properties take both approaches. The larger Star Trek IP grew out of the original TV series, so is similar to Dragonlance. World of Warcraft is a setting created to house your MMO character, and is open to a continuous stream of new content to keep you paying your subscription fee. In that way at least it’s like the Forgotten Realms, right?
If for nothing else but affirmation, I went to the fonts of all (or at least most—if I don’t qualify that at least a little, Jeff Grubb and Margaret Weis will kill me!) FR and DL wisdom: Ed Greenwood, creator of the Forgotten Realms setting; and Tracy Hickman, co-creator of Dragonlance.
“I agree with this assumption,” Ed Greenwood told me. “I know that the Realms was created with this intent, because I’m its creator and deliberately took this approach.”
But Tracy wasn’t as willing to let me off that easy. He told me he wasn’t sure my assumption, “is entirely accurate in the case of Dragonlance. It is true that the story was the foundation of Dragonlance and came out of the personal desire of both my wife [Laura Hickman] and myself to use role playing games as a medium of storytelling. You have to remember that at the time adventure games were largely of the ‘kill the monster, take its treasure, buy more weapons to kill bigger monsters’ variety. We wanted to introduce meaning into gaming through story.
“In practice, however, it became a ‘chicken and egg’ sort of issue. The game was being developed ahead of the story—which actually adversely affected the story itself. It wasn’t until we started writing story ahead of game . . . during the break between Dragons of Autumn Twilight and Dragons of Winter Night . . . that things actually smoothed out.”
Still, I think when you look at the relative timelines at work, my basic assumption bears out.”
Ed Greenwood elaborated: “[The Forgotten Realms world] began as a ‘shared setting’ for individual fantasy short stories I was writing (at the age of six, so none of the tales are, ahem, ‘classics’) in the same way as Fritz Leiber’s later Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories were then being published in (the Ted White era) Fantastic magazine, which I was then reading as issues appeared: Episodes centered on recurring characters (in my case, the fat, aging, wheezing swindler of a merchant, Mirt the Moneylender) that happened to all be set in the same world. [The world itself] was ‘in the background’ to the reader of just one story, but someone who read them all would over time learn more and more about the setting, and hopefully begin to enjoy and anticipate based on what they ‘knew’ about the imaginary setting.”
And at risk of making the eternally youthful Ed Greenwood feel old, I should point out that that was quite some time ago, especially in relation to Dragonlance’s comparatively brief bout with growing pains.
“By 1967 . . . I had hit upon the name and concept of ‘The Forgotten Realms,’ ” Ed went on, “and could see more of the setting. I was also following other characters besides Mirt. The results are in print, as the short story ‘One Comes, Unheralded, to Zirta.’ (printed in the collection The Best of the Realms, Book II: The Stories of Ed Greenwood, Wizards of the Coast, 2005)
Both FR and DL have lived a very, very long time and feature major best-sellers, so I won’t bother trying to choose sides, and make the case that one strategy is inherently better than the other, but still I felt compelled to ask both Ed and Tracy which approach they thought made for a better, more interesting property from the point of view of an author spending decades in the same world.
Ed Greenwood was “heading towards something I think is a major flaw, from the point of longevity, for a world that’s being used for games or collaborative and shared-setting novels, over time, as opposed to being the private playground of just one author: If the world is built around a single big epic, it can be too ‘narrow’ in scope to comfortably tell other satisfying tales. Or to put it another way: If the root tale of the setting is too ‘big,’ involving heroes who save the world, what do you do for an encore? Save it again?”
That got me thinking about my previous comparison of Dragonlance to Star Trek, and I’m finding myself questioning the validity of that comparison. Though the “world” of the Federation was created as a back-drop for the adventures of Captain Kirk and his intrepid crew of space explorers, the episodic format of the series required that that future universe grow with each new adventure, and to guarantee that there was something worth watching next week, the universe—the IP—of Star Trek had to remain open to new conflicts and challenges.
But it was still mostly about Kirk and crew, like Dragonlance is still mostly about the Heroes of the Lance. But it’s not entirely that simple, as Tracy Hickman points out:
“Story is the universal conveyor of meaning. Properly deployed story in game settings extends the game experience beyond the rules and the setting into the realm of change, growth and life application. I think it is a mistake to fixate on the specific and more tangible elements of the setting; one needs to have a grasp of the overall tone and message that a ‘property’—whatever that is—conveys to the reader. Dragonlance isn’t meaningful to readers because it has dragons and lances. It’s meaningful because it conveys a certain attitude, viewpoint, promise and meaning. The same is true with Forgotten Realms. I don’t think it is a question of approach . . . I think it is a question of deep content that is found beyond the words and the rules.”
Leave it to Tracy Hickman to hit the intellectual property nail firmly on the head with those eleven words: “deep content that is found beyond the words and the rules.”
And a successful property requires care and feeding. I always described myself, in my roll for some years as the Forgotten Realms line editor at Wizards of the Coast, as a “shepherd.” FR was only partially and only temporarily under my care. Like a doctor, my first responsibility was to do no harm.
Ed Greenwood feels that “it’s important to emphasize that the success of either approach is in how they’re handled, not the inevitable result of flaws and strengths in one approach versus the other.
“It’s certainly easier,” he went on, “if multiple creators are at work in [a shared setting], to tell different stories centered around different characters—and because writers are all individuals who tell stories in different ways, the collective result will inevitably be richer than the work of one writer. However, there may well be (and usually is) a cost in coherency and consistency.”
To me, this is where a good, responsible, creative IP management team comes in, with or without a strong central manager in the form of an editor, an empowered creator, or what TV producers call a “show runner.” Somewhere, that coherency and consistency that Ed spoke of has to be contained in some kind of document. If the secrets of what makes the property the property exist only in one person’s head, or in any other form that cannot be readily shared, disaster is the only possible result. The nature of the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance D&D campaign setting game products—detailed encyclopedias for each world, in multiple volumes—were extraordinarily helpful, but other properties will only have those “bibles” in the background, available to writers, producers, editors, etc. And woe, and I mean woe, to anyone who tries to manage even the least complex IP without them.
“A property gets too big for any one person the moment they haven’t time to enjoy doing a good job on published works associated with that property, or products are licensed that they can’t themselves create with the same skill,” Ed Greenwood said. “I can draw, but not well enough to produce the gorgeous painted covers I want on Realms novels. Nor can I create lunch boxes well enough to produce a line of Realms lunch boxes without holding up all Realms products while I learn how. The moment that happens, the ‘too big’ moment has been reached.
“Before that moment happens, a team should have been developed in which trust is paramount (regardless of the inevitable creative tensions), and a shared vision (and creators’ rules, such as who has the ultimate decisions and so on) settled upon, so the fights can be about creative details (i.e. benefiting the setting) and not about turf, power, office politics, personal enrichment, or anything else.”
Tracy Hickman: “I believe it comes down to respect and trust. No single person can write and control every single aspect of a project this large. In the 1970s or even early 80s a single person could sit down and write the code for a computer game. Now, it requires a huge staff and a budget equivalent to a movie to produce a computer or console game. The same is true of any large gaming IP.
“But I believe it comes down to how you control the product. I believe that management of continuity should be like holding a bunch of marbles in your hand. If you squeeze too tightly—try to control every aspect of the continuity or generate it yourself—then the marbles start flying out between your fingers and you lose your marbles. If you open your hand and let everyone working on the property do whatever they want then you lose any structure, direction, or focus as everyone does their own thing. Again, no marbles.
“But if you give a product a vision, a direction and a structure within which everyone can explore their own ideas . . . then you don’t have to sweat the individual details because everyone being on the same page and within the same structural parameters of the unified vision.”
I’ll boil it down to what I’ll call Phil’s First Rule of Intellectual Property Management: Write everything down. Which then leads to Phil’s Second Rule: Read what you just wrote, and read it again and again, especially when you don’t think you have to.
Ed Greenwood has rules of his own:
“Good property development looks down the road and anticipates.
“Always apply my base design principles for the Realms:
“1. Don’t blow up the moon (this is Jeff Grubb’s wording, but I already had that same idea; ‘don’t break the toys you find when you arrive’ was the way I put it). This stops one creative project or person from wrecking the entire show, however unintentionally or for ‘good’ reasons.
“2. For every possibility you close off, put three in its place (so if you tell the reader where the lost princess went and what happened to her, you also need to subtly put three new mysteries for them to chase into the Realms). This avoids bleeding the setting of life and ‘ending the story.’
“3. Entertain all ideas brought to the table, but make sure you turn them all on their heads to see if they work better twisted in an unintended or unforeseen way. This is where new blood and energy comes from.”
When I asked Ed what he might do differently if he had an opportunity to go back in time to the very inception of the Forgotten Realms world, he went back to the subject of who is in control, and to what degree any one person can be in complete creative control of a bigger, more complex property: “I would have kept some measure of creative control over the world, however short-lived, by accepting that offer to become a TSR staffer ‘in charge of’ the Realms. Not to stop the various designers going wild with the stories they wanted to tell, or ‘stay on top’ so the best selling novels were mine, but to avoid inconsistencies and misunderstandings.”
Tracy Hickman had a similar, if a bit more philosophical answer:
“I suppose it is tempting to think I could have insisted on having more control over the setting and its continuity but that would not be right. Dragonlance, whatever it became, was more than just my vision—for good or ill it became what it was because of the influence of countless designers, writers, and production artists of all kinds down through the years. I may be the father of Dragonlance but children always grow up and never in the ways their parents expect of them.”
So here we have two similar settings, indelibly linked, if not at first, to the Dungeons & Dragons game, that started in very different ways and have both been around longer than some of the younger authors—and at least two editors I know—have been alive. I had to ask, then, how did they live this long?
Tracy Hickman blames you: “Every day I acknowledge the fact that longevity in a product is not something that I do, but is measured entirely by the actions of our audience. We provide them with our best efforts—longevity is a measure of their reading our words or playing our games. That is action on the part of the audience.”
Ed Greenwood has a similar feeling in terms of the fans’ desire to keep exploring the Realms. “Some gamers decry the endless stream of Realms products or the masses of background detail,” Ed told me, “but the point is that for decades, far more gamers have lapped it all up, cried for more, and are still crying for more. Anything we’ve explained in detail has been discussed, argued over, and analyzed in depth. Anything we haven’t explained has been speculated over and demanded, repeatedly. Anything, from small details of passing fashion to the fates or mysterious pasts of minor supporting characters.”
And both IPs are still going strong, so what of the future? Successful intellectual properties have a way of outliving their creators, and certainly outlive the occasional editor or two.
According to Tracy Hickman: “Whenever new people coming into something like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, the first thing they want to do is ‘fix it’, ‘change it’ or ‘make it better.’ It’s natural for new people to want to make their mark on something like this and, in truth, I wish they would. Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms both have to be living, breathing and changing things, evolving if they are going to survive.
“The problem is that too often new people coming into something like this have no real understanding of the history of a property like this or its evolution over time. They don’t have a grasp of the foundations on which it was all built in the first place and only an obscure notion of what the IP is ‘about.’ We were pioneers in our day trying to figure out how to merge story with games. We made a lot of mistakes and we learned from them. We certainly learned more from the mistakes than from our successes. And over time we came to understand what ‘Dragonlance’ was about in the meta-sense.
“What I would hope for in the next generation of developers is that they would take the time and the opportunity to learn what made Dragonlance ‘right’ in the first place—its development history and original vision before they put their hand to changing it. If there has been a consistent problem with Dragonlance in particular, it has been that new people coming into the product ignore the foundation, vision and roots of the product and, in doing so, keep having to learn the lessons that have already been hard won by those who went before them.
“So, I suppose what I would most value in those who come after me is a respect and understanding of the great work that so many other people have done before them.”
Ed Greenwood’s sentiments were basically identical: “I most value the ability to ‘think Realms,’ and express it. In other words, to respect what has come before and mesh with it, treat the Realms as a real place, and make all changes and developments seem to be part of the unfolding history of this real world known as the Realms, not something tacked on or jarring with what we’ve already seen in print, or ‘it’s not a change; it’s always been this way, what you read before was wrong.’ To take that latter route would be disrespectful to the creators who came before and to the readers and gamers who already use and love the setting, because they are made to feel duped, or less brilliant than the new guys on the block because they loved and identified with something that is now being ‘improved’ or ‘fixed’ or worse, openly sneered at.
“I most value the capacity to love, and express that love, in people who create in worlds I’ve created, or game or read in those worlds. What goes around, comes around: love, and the love comes back to you.”
—Philip Athans

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Great article, Philip! As a past wanderer of both Faerun and Krynn (particularly in the 90′s), it is always interesting to see how such marvelous worlds came to be.
I have always loved the Realms and still do. I wish the current batch of creators had more respect and understanding of the Realms.
Excellent article, keep up the good work.
Nice article, Phil, and very true to the creations of those worlds (as I remember them) and their spirit as well.
I hope that, maybe some day in the future, people will feel the same way about the work Jean Rabe & I are doing on the Blue Kingdoms stories & setting. Time will tell.
And it’s always nice to “visit” with my old friends Tracy Hickman & Ed Greenwood. Good job.
“1. Don’t blow up the moon”
Or blow up the actual world in a cataclysm of magic and fire to support your new rule system. I guess Mr Greenwood either has no control over the Realms now or doesn’t follow his own advice.
Why don’t these “original authors” ever come out and say what they really feel? Obviously Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance have been completely mismanaged and destroyed by Hasbro. Why can’t these guys speak up about it? Everything they say is so veiled and obtuse that it loses all meaning. Are the legal documents so binding that these guys can’t say when they feel something is a terrible mistake and explain why?
Heh. Someone in DL blew up the moon a while ago. I haven’t been as on board with the series since.
@TC – I imagine that there’s either a sort of non-disclosure agreement, or else there’s a general sentiment of “I might need to work with these people again, so let’s not piss them off” in creators. If they say what they really feel, they might be out of a job. If they’re out of a job, then some other people in the company don’t have jobs either. It becomes nasty, and then they get blamed for the fallout because they spoke their minds. I believe that working for a company owned by a major corporation is probably office politics times 9 million. In other words, a snake pit filled with friends and a high degree of collateral damage.
Gotta love corporations.
First off, brilliant article and excellent interviewing, Phil. You’ve always been good at this–keep doing it!
“Obviously Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance have been completely mismanaged and destroyed by Hasbro.”
First off, there’s nothing “obvious” about it. Your opinion (and the opinions of a lot of people) may indeed hold that that’s the case, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But there are a lot of people (myself included) who don’t see it that way.
Secondly, yes, mistakes were made (I’d be more specific, but again, it’s just my opinion), and there is a lot that I, for one, would have done differently had I the chance. (Though hindsight is 20/20, while foresight is sometimes 20/4000, so it’s entirely possible that I might have made the same or worse missteps–we’ll never know.)
But the settings are still vibrant, still supported, and most importantly, still THERE–hardly destroyed. Ed keeps writing there, Tracy keeps writing there, and as an author myself I suspect it isn’t vanity or for the money–it’s because they love the settings and earnestly want to develop them further, warts and all.
And over and above them, there are scores, even hundreds of us writing new novels, source materials, and video game stuff for the Realms or for Dragonlance every day. Some of it’s good, some of it misfires, but all of it is at least attempting to build the setting in good and successful ways. It’s a collaborative effort.
And on that note, you sound like you care about one or both of these settings, and if that’s the case and you want to do something to amend it (whilst keeping in mind Tracy’s advice about “fixing” it all your first day on the job), then by all means get involved. Submit your stuff to the online publications. Advocate your beliefs on the websites. Tell them what you want, over and over until someone listens. Build something–don’t just tear stuff down.
Cheers
Wonderful article, Phil! I especially liked the part where new writers need to be respectful to those who came before them, especially when they created the world in the first place. This was true with shared worlds like Superman and Batman, and even single author worlds like Middle Earth. The screen writers and directors had to be true to Tolkien’s books, or too many fans would be ticked off. This is a mistake that should never be made. The formula which always worked so successfully should never be altered too much. For example, as a kid I loved comic books, they were a great escape for me. I stopped reading them when they turned dark, evil, and violent. In particular, there was one issue of Superman when the Toyman murdered a group of kids. I threw the issue across the room and never bought one again. A few weeks ago, I checked out some “graphic novels” in the bookstore. Wonder Woman had murdered a man, and the Red Tornado was transplanted into a human body, only to have his arm torn off.
This is not making changes in storyline to make it up to date and more interesting, like when Clark Kent became a Newscaster instead of a writer for a paper, or moving the Justice League to a satillite headquarters. This was about destroying what was innocent and pure, and exposing kids to needless violence out of some sick perversion, because they own the copyright and have the power to do it. That’s a form of child abuse, and needlessly shocks even adult readers. I’d never let kids read the comics they put out today. At 13, I used to have nightmares about Wolverine’s claws, or Tomb of Dracula–and what they put into comics today is far worse.
Making sweeping changes in a successful media on the premise of making more money is worse than wrong, it’s an insult to a cherished memory of something which was once good and pure, and should be considered a crime in some cases. What kind of sick, satanic mind would deliberately expose children to bloody dismemberment and cannibalism? (Solomon Grundy ate the arm he tore off.)
I’m sorry, but there’s no excuse for that.
Wizards of the Coast, taken over by Hasbro, has made sweeping changes in the guise of making more money, by throwing 30 years of history away. While they made a few new fans, they ticked off far too many of us, and lost sales they could’ve made to a lot of people. Worse, they don’t want to hear the truth, and cajole and threaten people to censor their viewpoint. However, we can cast our vote the way a capitolist system always has–by refusing to buy the product we don’t like, until they realize the sales aren’t what they hoped they’d be, and revert to the formula that used to work. The good thing about the internet is, no one can control all of it, and censor opposing points of view.
(Take that, Illuminati! Bet you wish you’d never invented the net now.)
“Wizards of the Coast, taken over by Hasbro, has made sweeping changes in the guise of making more money, by throwing 30 years of history away. While they made a few new fans, they ticked off far too many of us, and lost sales they could’ve made to a lot of people. Worse, they don’t want to hear the truth, and cajole and threaten people to censor their viewpoint. However, we can cast our vote the way a capitolist system always has–by refusing to buy the product we don’t like, until they realize the sales aren’t what they hoped they’d be, and revert to the formula that used to work. The good thing about the internet is, no one can control all of it, and censor opposing points of view.
(Take that, Illuminati! Bet you wish you’d never invented the net now.)”
So why don’t the original creators speak up about this? I suspect it is the almighty dollar that keeps them quite and complacent but that is just as much a travesty to me. The original creators of many things are no longer around to speak up but for FR and DL they are and they are still active in the genre. They have the perfect avenue and venue to say something but they won’t because of the financial implications. Very sad.
“But the settings are still vibrant, still supported, and most importantly, still THERE–hardly destroyed. Ed keeps writing there, Tracy keeps writing there, and as an author myself I suspect it isn’t vanity or for the money–it’s because they love the settings and earnestly want to develop them further, warts and all. ”
I don’t think so. I believe they keep writing to keep getting the cash. There is simply is no way to reconcile the things both Tracy and Ed say about writing and their personally philosophies with what is actually happening to the things they created. This is the definition of a hypocrite.
“And on that note, you sound like you care about one or both of these settings, and if that’s the case and you want to do something to amend it (whilst keeping in mind Tracy’s advice about “fixing” it all your first day on the job), then by all means get involved. Submit your stuff to the online publications. Advocate your beliefs on the websites. Tell them what you want, over and over until someone listens. Build something–don’t just tear stuff down.”
I don’t really care about either of these particular settings. I just care about them as creations that people built and others enjoy. I do build stuff, all the time, I just don’t build fictional worlds or games. I have no skill for it. Thats why I buy and read what others create since they have the skill for it.
[...] “The Worlds That Outgrew Their Stories: Two Roads to Intellectual Property Success” [...]
I’m afraid it’s worse than that. On dlnexus, I was “banned” from the forum section by Trampas “Dragonhelm” Whiteman–apparently on the orders of someone at Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast–for supporting Margaret Weis’ position as co-creator and bestselling author of Dragonlance, over some corporate bigwig at Hasbro. Dragonflunky’s response? “There is no freedom of speech on our board.”
Huh! And here I thought the Dragonlance Nexus forum was for fans and players, who’ve been supporting Dragonlance and D&D all these decades (35 years or so, since my dad bought me that first box set in ’75) to voice our honest opinions about the game, D&D products, and all the changes Hasbro made since they took over the company in a hostile takeover, threw out 35 years of gaming rules, and told all of us–gamers, game designers, novelists, and even the Dragonlance editor–to go to hell!
Dragonflunky is an obvious sell-out, and the whole board has been converted into a soapbox pushing Hasbro’s new 4th edition and presumably their other products, too. It wouldn’t surprise me if they opened a new discussion thread advertising Scrabble and Monopoly–oh, wait! Trampas did! It covers “other games” besides Dragonlance on the Dragonlance board, with this ominous warning: “THE MODERATORS ARE WATCHING YOU.” i.e., “Big Brother’s Watching You.” (Orwell was only 20 years off when he wrote 1984. Did they burn his books yet?)
Anyway, some rich pr*k bought the company, owns all the copyrights now, and as I said, told us all, including Weis and Hickman, to drop dead. The only thing we can do is vote with our wallets, and boycott all Hasbro products until they get the message in falling sales, and ask Margaret to return–nicely. An apology to all the fans they insulted would also be in order.
It was right after I dared to suggest the above on the forums that Dragonflunky banned me (along with the entire library’s shared computer system, the genious) presumably after he got a call from Wizards, Hasbro, or someone else in the Illuminati, with the infamous line, “Remember whom you serve.” (Satan.)
“This is the definition of a hypocrite.”
When the details of the changes to FR were first coming to light, there was a message from Ed posted on the Candlekeep boards. Here’s a quote:
“Yet it’s happening regardless of my personal wants, and I choose to be onboard trying to paddle and steer, rather than left behind swimming in the water, calling out that perhaps we should have set a different course.”
I’d say that Ed is far from a hypocrite. He’s just in a difficult position – seeing the world that he created taken in a direction that he didn’t support can’t be easy.
Anyway, I’m another in the legion of folks who are voting with their wallets. 4e FR holds absolutely no interest for me, so I won’t be spending a nickel on it. It makes me extremely sad that the WotC novelists and game designers were so crippled by their own lack of imagination that they felt it necessary to nuke the Realms in order to give themselves a clean canvas.
“He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.”
“Anyway, I’m another in the legion of folks who are voting with their wallets. 4e FR holds absolutely no interest for me, so I won’t be spending a nickel on it.”
That’s a great strategy–not sure it’ll be as effective as one would hope, but it’s the path of integrity.
I’m curious about this “holds absolutely no interest” business, because as far as I can see, there are some things that have changed and some things that haven’t, really. Are you saying that all the things that interested you about the Realms were the things that aren’t there anymore? Or is it more a matter of being (legitimately) pissed off about the changes?
I can certainly understand the latter attitude.
“It makes me extremely sad that the WotC novelists and game designers were so crippled by their own lack of imagination that they felt it necessary to nuke the Realms in order to give themselves a clean canvas.”
Just to clarify on this point, and clear up a potential misconception before it starts: most of us “WotC novelists” were not at all involved in the decision and had no say either way. Those of us who were involved by and large objected very stringently, but the setting was changed anyway. I don’t think a one of us suffers any “[crippling] lack of imagination,” as evidenced by the fact that we keep writing in the setting, making it work for better or worse.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to criticize something one has never read, and if you aren’t giving a nickel to WotC, then that seems to imply you haven’t read any of the novels associated with the 4e FR–some of which, I think, are really, really good. (And I’m not talking about my own work here, but that of Ed, Jaleigh, Rosemary, etc., the list goes on.)
Cheers
@Erik
Yeah, I probably overstated the thing about the novelists and designers. I apologize for that – it’s unfair to tar everyone with the same brush, especially since my impressions/guesswork may be off the mark to begin with. It’s based on the impression that I got from reading Ed’s post regarding the arguments about the change. He mentioned “heavy-hitter novelists and designers” being involved in the decision, and he *seemed* to imply that they were the driving force (or one of them).
As for the the “no interest” thing, I’m not getting that out of thin air. While I haven’t bought any of the products, I *have* done some fairly extensive reading about the changes. Retcons are always dodgy (imo), and the stuff like the trimming of the pantheon seems to be just playing to the lowest common denominator. I think that completely hosing 30+ years of NPC development and canon just to squeeze in a new rule set is completely preposterous.
And I’m sure you’re right about the quality of the novels, but I’ve always been more of a game products fan. I’ve read some FR novels, but not a lot.
Agreed. I just want to make sure we’re being careful to separate fact from speculation. Ed would have to be the one to make it more clear, and if he hasn’t, it’s because he’s choosing not to, so as not to point fingers. I find that not hypocritical, but classy.
“While I haven’t bought any of the products, I *have* done some fairly extensive reading about the changes.”
Does that come from actually reading the 4e sourcebooks, or browsing opinions on the internet? Because online, people are always markedly more vocal in their opposition to something than in support (the people who do like it tend not to bother saying so), and the 4e FR has caused quite a bit of online angst. Arguments like “completely hosing 30+ years of NPC development and canon” echo to me like things said by people online who haven’t actually bothered to look at the sourcebooks or the DDI articles, so they can’t see the effort a lot of us designers are making to tie everything together, the old and the new. (I’m thinking particularly of Ed and the James Brothers, but it goes for a LOT of us.)
The canon is all still there, and a good number of the stories are still going strong, despite a 100 year jump. I for one feel just as comfortable in the new Realms as in the 3e Realms, or the 2e Realms, or the 1e Realms.
(I do agree that retcons are always dodgy, but I don’t think this one is as severe as it appears on the surface. Also, the deific trimming was IMO unnecessary, and it’s strictly for mechanical game purposes. They just didn’t want it seeming too complicated, and I know some of us who are really up on it don’t find it so, but nor do we want our setting to be an old boys club, if you know what I mean. So while I don’t agree with the changes, I can at least understand why they made them.)
Judging the whole 4e FR setting on the basis of the FRCG is like judging 3e on the basis of the FRCS–it’s much less fully realized than it is when you look at EVERYTHING. Now it’s true, WotC has brought that on themselves by not launching into a full production cycle of sourcebooks, but there are DDI articles (averaging about one a month), and they’ve recently announced returning to print products with the Neverwinter Campaign Guide out next year (of which I wrote a third, and IMO, the book’s pretty rockin’). So there is considerably light on the horizon.
And maybe all this is moot–you have indeed checked it out, decided you didn’t like it, and that’s all fine and good. I just encourage people to look at it and make their own decisions, rather than just going with the opinions of others.
Cheers
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